Greetings, all!
Thanks to Brother C, I can now contribute, and that is exactly what I am doing right now. As we know by now, the assault phase just isn't what it used to be in 5th. Additionally, as a Black Templars player, our army was hit hard with the new FAQ. I loved it how GW beefed up Preferred Enemy and then took it right away from us, giving us Rage instead (and for all you naysayers who said that Black Templars weren't good in cc anyway with Preferred Enemy, maybe our normal marines weren't top tier but our Assault Terminators and HQ's were top notch with the rerolls especially with the claws reroll).
So what is a Templars player to do in 6th? Although we don't have as many unit options for shooty goodness, what we do have is shooty leftovers from 4th edition, and CHEAP shooty options, which ironically makes us really good at shooting now. I have been tinkering with what I want to run for a standard 2k list and after a few test games I think I have a list I'll be using until our army gets nerfed harder with a WD codex. So, without further ado, 'ere we go:
Black Templars Death Crusade- 2K list
HQ
110 Emperor's Champion with Abhor the Witch vow (free D6" move at game start plus additional 5+ save against psychic attacks)
180 Marshall, Terminator armor, power fist, storm shield, Adamantine Mantle (no Instant Death from double toughness). Keep in mind that our HQ's still get an extra attack from Term armor or honors, just like the good 'ole days that some of you kids don't remember.
Troops
101 5 bolter marines, plasma gun, lascannon
101 same as above
106 5 bolter marines, plasma cannon, plasma gun
157 6 man bolters, heavy bolter, plasma gun, 2 Neophytes with bp/ccw, all in Drop Pod (Emp Champ is along for the ride)
140 5 bolter marines, meltagun, multimelta, Drop Pod
Elites
265 5 Terminators, 2 cyclone missile launchers, Tank Hunters
280 7 Assault Terminators- I haven't decided firmly on numbers for my deathstar unit but I have been running 5 TH/SS termies and 2 Lightning Claw termies and that seems to work fine. Also considering a 6/1 unit.
Fast Attack
75 Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer and Multimelta, Deep Strike
75 Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer and Multimelta, Deep Strike
Heavy Support
265 Land Raider Crusader (Marshall and Assault Terminators ride here)
145 Predator, TL lascannon, 2 lascannon sponsons
Alright, there we are. The thing that really stands out in my mind is that beefy unit in that beefy Land Raider. Not only has all of that done something in every game I have played, but that marshal soaking up wounds and not going down on S8 has been a HUGE factor and has really been worth the steep points cost. Besides that unit, I now have to get used to playing as a "standard" marine player with shooty goodness rather than trying to bash in the skull of everything on the board in close combat.
I won't go into basic tactics unless prompted, but there's my list. Thoughts? Opinions? Criticism? Your criticism is wrong by the way :-)
welcome to the blog brother!
ReplyDeleteI have just a few comments about the list..
1. i love the marshal with SS and AM. that is a nice combo and will help him survive those challenges.
2. not convined on your speeder variant, never have been. i don't like deep striking speeders, and i think typhoons are the way to go.
3. something to consider is taking 2x vindis, if you can give them tank hunters.. even better.
4. not convinced of 5 man squads coming out of drop pods. how do you see them staying alive? I think rhinos may serve you better.
@Cornelius:
ReplyDelete1. Yeah he has been invaluable a few times for surviving those challenges, and also for being a wound sponge during charge-in. Putting him one battle-brother back usually works but sometimes he leads the charge-in depending on the situation.
2. We'll have to agree to disagree on the speeders. HF/MM Deep Striking speeders means I get two VERY cheap options to flamethrower or melta a unit. These units aren't meant to survive, just force the opponent to deal with them, bringing them off course from my main units.
3. Can't give vindis TH but they can get PotMS. I'm not sold on them, as their range is 24" and they are easily flanked to be hit on side armor 11. I'd rather sit back on my gun line next to a building with AV13 facing out and smack tanks from range with a (very cheap) Predator.
4. I've had some back and forth with Rhinos. For one, Rhinos for me are still 50 points, and I have to BUY smoke launchers (which at this point I probably wouldn't). Drop pods let me place the units where I want them, relatively safe and relatively speaking. Either they can seize objectives or they can drop behind enemy lines and force a diversion until the deathstar unit arrives. They're not meant to survive but for the points cost and what I can do with them, I am sold on them, for the moment anyway. May think about running squads in a Rhino in the future. Razorbacks are VERY expensive for me and out of the question, btw; if I decide to run Rhinos ill do a ghetto Rhinoback with 5 man las-plas squad aboard. Let me play test a bit. Plus I have an old school FW drop pod... always wanted a chance to use it that was decent.
Its a shooty list that's for sure! I like a lot of it, especially the terminators and the marshal.
ReplyDeleteI am not sold completely on your guys coming out of pods. I would drop the pods on them and just give them rhinos or even razors. Heck on foot I think they would be even better than pods. Although, in your defense, I have myself been testing out the drop pods in my Blood Angels lists and they have been working very nicely. The one big difference is tho that my entire force is reserved whilst yours is not. So it is a bit easier to ignore enemy alpha strikes because of that for me. I am iffy on them for you as you don't have FNP on your units. I could see them working tho, I suppose more testing is needed there.
Other than that I like it. You could consider double assault cannons on the terminators too. They actually work pretty well now. I also love the predator, very killy.
Yeah I really need to playtest these Drop Pods. More and more I am thinking one Drop Pod (comes in Turn 1), one Rhino with melta goodness. Razorbacks for me are base 55 points for a HB, moving up to 70 for a las (bot twin linked and those are all of the options I have for them). I like the idea of podding in my Emp Champ as an insurance close combat choice (sub FNP with him in most instances except against termies), but again, need to playtest because if I go with a rhino/pod combo I might wanna stick him somewhere else (heck maybe even on the gunline).
ReplyDeleteI don't really like the assault cannons, and I'll tell you why, even though I playtested them and they SOUND good, that 24" range really hurts them as they get bowled over in close combat, or rapid fired to death. They just don't seem to fit in with what I am trying to do and as much as I really wanted to fit them out with TH and unleash death upon the enemy (or best chance to shoot down flyers), they just didn't convince me when I ran them. I feel that in a pinch the LRC or the twin-cyclones have a decent shot of smacking flyers, as decent as my army gets anyway. The assault cannon termies really only get one good round of shooting before they get assaulted by a deathstar/shot to death by a gunline.
The termies and the marshal is the giant gold nugget upon which my army is built... everything else is basically buffed-up MSU shootiness (btw I LOVE this unit). The pred is nice for the points now but if I get new rules it will probably be too expensive to run. Like the Land Speeders I have been taking this predator as a cornerstone of my army lists for years and it almost always has done something.
My how the Templars have changed... somewhere along the line we learned how to shoot better than 'nilla marines. Next codex we will get Sternguard for cheap or free, ha.
Although I haven't played any games with this list, thanks to the comments as well as some of the reading I have been doing (and the models I have on hand), a few slight tweaks to the list have emerged:
ReplyDelete-Dropped one Drop pod squad, kept the one with HB/plasma gun. Maxed that unit out to include 7 Initiates, and 2 Neophytes with shotguns instead of bp/ccw. Emp Champ still kept in squad.
- Assault terminator squad is now a 6/1 concentration.
-Added Chainfist to Cyclinator squad.
-Added a Vindicator for deathstar killy goodness, thanks to getting destroyed by Ork Nobz. A lot of people like the Vindicator now, and although I am not one of them, I need to learn how to run one in a list, which is probably why i do not like them.
Looks like some good changes to me. I really like vindicators now, but I am biased as the BA ones are super speedy killy action.
ReplyDeleteI think you need to play to your strengths tho and the changes I think are good, especially the terminator ones